SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey guys, welcome back to Sunbelt Developers Podcast. My name is Tim Wright. I'm a commercial real estate broker at Cushman and Wakefield. We have the honor of having Mason Zimmerman here with us today. Mason is a good friend. He's been a mentor to me over the years and just somebody I look up to in the industry. He's currently the CEO of Pope and Land and has some other ventures of his own. And we're going to dive into a lot of different things here. Just I know Pope and Land is very involved in kind of the Cumberland area. You all have some Dutch investors. You have a lot of different cool things that are going on. So maybe we'll get to that a little bit later. But can you just dive in? Like tell, tell me about Mason. You grew up here in Atlanta. No, Texas. That's right. You went to UT. And okay, I'll let you take it.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Great. Well it's great to be here. Yeah, man. It's a super impressive place. And you're doing a great job with this. Yeah. So I've been here for 37 years, but I did grow up in Texas. I grew up in Dallas. Uh went to school, all through school there, went to University of Texas, and started in real estate business right out of college. I mean, like immediately, uh in the summer of 1984, and worked as a broker there uh until the world washed out in 87, 88. And then I started interviewing and uh looking for jobs outside of Texas before your time. But in 87, you might have read in your history books, in 87, 88, um, the tax laws changed, the market was overbuilt, oil and gas was dead, uh, and so it was just a really difficult time. And so uh it's actually the first of uh five major downturns I've been through over my 40 years in the business. But I got a job uh with Amley, Amley Realty, and was gonna go to Chicago to their headquarters, and then about a month before then they said, Why don't you go to Atlanta? And I said, Great. I've been to Atlanta once, and uh that's what we did. So that's how my journey started here in 1988.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

And Phil Tag was Phil Tag. Great guy.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Still going to say he is speaking of mentors, he I've had three of the best mentors you could possibly imagine, and he's he's he's probably right up there.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

We gotta have him on the podcast. You should. I've given him some nudges and you should. Yeah. So what was what was his role at Amly at that point? He was running it. Still then. Running back then.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Wow. Yeah, so the AMLE evolution was I was there uh in January of eighty-eight, began here, went home, got married, came back, brought my wife here. Uh we got engaged before I left Texas. She's from Texas as well. And we met at UT. And we came here as a young married couple, I knew five people. I'd been to Atlanta twice, and we started our marriage and our life here together with nothing. And uh so that's how it started. I started with with Amly and was working on on land deals. And you know, you might remember that Amly was used to be in office and business parks as well as apartments, and so they had grown this big company regionally from in Chicago, in Dallas, and in Atlanta. And in 94, they went public, and so they had to separate the company. They didn't want to sell the land assets, they wanted to continue to mature them and and they needed to go, they went public with the with the apartment company. And so at that time I was running the land company for them here, and I was charged to go find a partner. And so I went and interviewed a bunch of people and and then Larry Kelly and I connect connected, and that was it. And I had known Larry through NAP, and everybody on the planet loves Larry Kelly, and so it was a perfect fit. And that's how I came to Pope and Land. We formed a venture, and that was 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Wow. How did just through networking, you just kind of went what was Larry doing at the time?

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Larry was president of Pope and Land. Uh he was still, yeah, Pope and Land's the same Pope. Pope and Land's been all around almost fifty years, and so you know, he's been running the show for a very long time, and uh and it's just it was it was just a good fit because Pope and Land had properties where we didn't, and we had properties where they didn't, and we needed po Emily needed a service company, and we we had a it was a really good marriage culturally, f uh physically, economically, and so you know I that was my entree into there, and that's that's how it started.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Got it. Okay, so you join join forces and still doing kind of land deals and I mean what was day-to-day like with that.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Day-to-day back then, uh we had uh a portfolio of assets that Amley had acquired that I was messing with, and uh and Pope and Land was doing their own thing. And so what we did is we we sort of merged forces and we began to develop some of the Amley assets. So my job uh back then, um in in that combination between Amley World and Pope and Land World, when when I came to Pope and Land, Amley had uh 430 acres at um I-85 at 20, which is now the Mall of Georgia. We sold it to the Mall of Georgia for the Mall to uh to Scott Hudgens for the Mall of Georgia. We had bought all the undeveloped land in Barrett, about 600 acres. We had some at land in uh Gwinnett by the Gwinnett Mall. We had some land down south, and I had just finished a project in Augusta, a hundred and fifty-five-acre project, mixed use project in Augusta, which was sort of mostly done before I before the Pope and Land venture. But to answer your question, you know, we had done a lot of work at Amley, which was sort of set the stage to go vertical at through Pope and Land. So at the end of the day, in Barrett, uh we built uh built and leased and then sold ten office buildings. Um I did uh five retail buildings and three medical buildings all in Barrett through that venture. And then we sold out all that land or developed it. We had 70 acres in Peachtree Corners for a business park, so we did uh three build-a-suits there and a bunch of land sales and a ton of land sales at Barrett. So that was really the that was really the connection between the two. And then as that as that faded away and the Pope and Land stuff grew, then it was just Pope and Land.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Very cool. So Barrett was were any of those build-a-suits, or was that kind of ten speculative projects?

SPEAKER_01 6:43

We did uh Barrett Lakes. Well, first of all, you know, all the land to do all the land development first. So it's hard to imagine. But uh when I we first got there in '91, there was not much out there. So we literally created almost all the sites on the south side of Barrett Parkway onto which we could do buildings. So we did a variety of buildings, land sales and build a suits, retail bill suits, and then you know, so I was involved in the process of not only making the sites, but building the buildings, and I did all the leases and all the buildings, and then we sold them. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

What was Kennesaw State thing that was that? CSU. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Uh Kennesaw State College became Kennesaw State University, and it really it really is. It was such a great, such a great anchor out there. And it's just grown now, it's huge now. But I think for us to think back in that time when when when we're trying to place money in a growth path of growth area and then create value in it so then we can then grow it further, and that's really what that was. And when you roll it back to that time, you say, well, you know, why would you do it? Well, because you had uh 575 and 75 and Barrow Parkway and 41 and KSU and Town Center Mall. Those were all the pieces. And we're like, there's a bunch of land out here. We should probably get all over this. So I was fortunate enough to see it from then all the way to the end of the arc of the whole deal. And uh but that's you know, that's that's that's kind of what Pope and Land does anyway. Tries to get take deals from cradle to grave.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Yeah. I know y'all as as a group to own a ton around the battery and kind of the Cumberland submarket. Um how did those come about?

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Were those We have a deep history in Cumberland. Yeah. And you know, I wasn't you know, there's there's the Pope and Land uh past history, which goes back almost fifty years, and so I I am aware of a lot of the lore and the stories that you probably have heard of. I don't I didn't know Cumberland Wall when it was the the Boy Scout camp, but some guys do that was I'm saying there is an evolution.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Anyway, I I so I hear. But yeah, so Pope and Land really seated itself there in Cumberland over the years. And over the years, we have done uh Cumberland Center One, Cumberland Center two, Cumberland Center Four. Yeah. Uh we did a large assembly with John Williams at Steel House at Cumberland, sold a lot of that off. We did City View with 16 acres of entitlement in the City View buildings and sold off some and developed a building for a for a bank. Um then we've acquired properties. We acquired 180 Interstate North, sort of over in Sandy Springs, but generally that area. We have River Edge One and Powers Fair Landing West. We acquired the old Cobb Chamber building and then sold it. Um and then of course we were involved in the battery. So I think that uh you know, we also bought the Genuine Parts Building, uh, which a lot of people don't know that, but when we were working on uh with the Braves, they had put on a contract and uh they assigned their rights to us to buy it from them. You know, instead of them, they assigned their rights. So we bought the old Genuine Parts building and then sold it to uh sold the building to Brassfield and Gory and then did a venture with Pollock Shores on the what was to be a future phase site. We did apartments there. They did apartments, so we did a venture with them. Because we had built Brassfield and Gory's headquarters in Barrett in one of our projects. So it all sort of, you know, links up.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Okay, so that the brassfield the old genuine parts building. Is that where Brassfield is today? It is the fortress. That's uh Okay, and then it's the Ed Edison, is that the one next to it that y'all built? Uh Spectator. Spec okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Pollock Shores built it. Okay. So we sold we sold the land. We we we acquired the building and the land, developed land, sold the building and went through the zoning process and got the entire which was tough. So Brian Oates Brian Oates and I had been working on the on the uh on the battery together, and then we went into the battle over here to get the zoning done. That took a long time. But anyway, so uh my uh we don't have 17 hours to do that. I could tell you all my horror stories. We could. We could, but that's a lot of time. There's a lot of a lot of pitfalls.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

I want to bring it up. I just I'm I want to get oriented here because I know there's there's some like street, uh I guess there's like pad sites, kind of like these yeah, these. Is this Braves?

SPEAKER_01 11:12

That's all Braves. Yeah, that's all Braves. At the end of the day, I think one of the reasons that uh we were able to partner with the Braves on the battery development is because we had such a history at Cumberland. Yeah. And I think that it ultimately I think that that they figured that their team, our team could work with their team. Uh they had done a search across the country and it sort of came down to two groups uh and they chose us, and I think ultimately part of that was and I say us, I mean our team. Um just because I think of maybe local knowledge and relationships, I think it really made a difference. Because we know you know better than anybody. We're in a relationship business. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

So like what what was the timeline there when y'all first got approached? And I I understand the Turner Field kind of when they decided to go up to to kind of Cumberland area, that was a quick, quick deal.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

It's it's one of the most impressive things I've ever seen, honestly. Uh and I think at the end of the day, the the the reason that that place is there is just the power of that organization and their ability to make decisions, their ability to ask good questions, they knew what they wanted, um, and they got everybody together and they went for it like it was a World Series, you know? And I think it was you you you can imagine a big table full of a lot of people who are used to having their own way, and it was very clear pretty quick who was in charge. And and we were all working for the same goal, and there was a clock on the wall, and it was ticking down to the first pitch. And uh so it was an incredible experience. It's all about the Braves and the teams that they assembled and the work that they did. It was their vision. It's it's it's still just amazing to think that it got pulled off.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Wasn't it like a retaining pond or something? It was a little bit before me. I just I feel I was like in high school when I heard about all this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

There's a long story to that dirt as well. But but uh yeah, so the process was that that uh they put out on our they cast a vision, they hired a group out of California called Jurdy, and they did a master plan of what sort of what what the Braves sort of thought they wanted. And they and through JL, um shout out to Dave Demrist for shepherding that process, um, they put that out for you know for people to respond to. And so the Pope and Land, Fuque, Pollock Shores, H G O R, and Wakefield Beasley, now Nelson, all sort of came together and we did a pitch uh to say, hey, you know, we we want to work on this with you. And there was a process uh to get sort of selected, and our group was uh brought in to to help them with their vision for the battery. So it really was just two pieces. It was the public, private stadium piece and everything else, and the Braves owned it all. And so back to your part about the pond, you know, it was a very difficult site with a pipeline running through the middle of it with two big, you know, hills on it and a lake in between. And where it is now today, the Omni Hotel and the office building, we built the office building that um which has Comcast in it. That used to be a lake. And so they had the JLL was JLL was running all of the infrastructure work on that. Um parallel with the designs of it, and they were they were f draining and filling and moving the line and surcharging the dirt. I mean, it's a pretty amazing operation. And uh it's you know, we're just we're just bat boys in that whole thing. Those yeah, the Braves were running that show, and it's it was super impressive to see it.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Okay, so Comcast, resident, and then I guess there's a couple office buildings over here. Truis came later, I think. Oh, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Yeah, so the initial deal, and the initial deal was simply this. Yeah. Um it was the it was the execution of the battery, multiple pieces. But the the the team that was assembled was we can all work on the master plan, but then we can also work on executing the verticals. And so when at the time when the pads were done, we went into our different ventures. There was a a retail venture with Fuquay, there was a multifamily venture with Pollock Shores, and there was a the in the the office execution, we weren't even a we we were just a developer uh we didn't own it. But the other ones were actually private capital investments that we all got sold out, bought out of. Got it. Okay. We were just we were the development main construction manager and the leasing agent for the office building, which in the beginning was Spec. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Wow. And then how did Comcast came up? Like they were just shopping around on the market and this is a because the Braves are the Braves.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

That's an unbelievably impressive and powerful organization that just had and I think that you know, down to people, I think that, you know, Mike Plant and Derek Sheller uh and their whole team at that time really knew what they wanted and they had the ability to go get it. And what's amazing to me is to think that the power and and the reach of that organization was sort of cooped up and caged down at Turner Field on an island for as long as they were, and that's like that's not them. This is who they are. And that's that's amazing for our region, for our city. Uh it's it's impressive.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Yeah. Amazing. Okay. So Bra the I'm trying to remember the timeline. When when was the first pitch? 2017. April. And then you're probably there first game, maybe? We were. Okay. Okay. Probably the whole team, that was probably a big celebration moment. Okay, so the big news recently has been Brave Spot Pennant Park. And I mean, they haven't said that they have any plans immediately for it. Um I'm curious what your I mean, you're not a Brave Spoke spokesperson, but I'm curious what your your thought you think just defensive real estate play or I think so.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

I think they've I think they they believed in the Halo effect in the beginning and they believe in it for sure now. Yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

All right. Um what's going on at River Edge One and uh basis landing, I think I have the name right. Those are the Paris Fair Landing, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Uh River Edge One is a great example of uh evolution of a building. And you know, the people will will often say, and you know better than anybody, that the the office market is maybe bifurcated into the haves and the have nots, right? And if you can't compete on one end in a trophy building where where it's fully amenitized and the rates are rising and everybody wants to be there, like Jim Irwin stuff, uh then you have other stuff that has run its life, run its course. So what's happening in River Edge One is an asset that we own, and we are detenanting it to destroy it and do a townhome deal there. So it's a very cool, it's an it's an amazing arc of a of a deal, and we'll we can extract value out of it that way.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Hey guys, I just want to take a second and thank our sponsors for today. Our main sponsor is SHR or Sanji High Roads. David Sanji was one of our guests a couple months ago and really brought an incredible story about his career. Sanji High Roads is a commercial real estate development company that has done almost$3 billion in development. A couple projects that you might know here in Atlanta is the Hyatt Centric, right behind Linux Mall. There's also the Howell, which is a brand new apartment complex. And the most exciting project that they're working on is the expansion to the Savannah Convention Center. We're really excited to go down there probably early next year to show you guys what's going on. But they've broken ground. It's an almost a$400 million project. It's been in the works for almost 10 years and uh very excited. So if you have any development opportunities or you want to learn more about them, uh please visit sangyhighroads.com. Again, that's sangyhighroads.com. Now back to the show. Yeah. Um I'm a little embarrassed to share this with you, but my first like real job, we had an office at that building, and uh, we were a bunch of college kids, and we had some money. So we bought basically an arsenal of Nerf guns, and we probably had like fifty or sixty Nerf guns, and we'd invite all our friends to that office building at like ten or eleven o'clock at night and have nerf wars in the hallways of that building. And uh I'm glad. Yeah, it was it was uh it's gonna be sad to see it go, but I mean it's a great location.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

You got the Cochrane Shoals there, like you want to hear a nerf story on steroids? Sure. Nerf gun story on steroids? Why not? So we uh we bought the old Charlotte Coliseum in Charlotte where the Hornets used to play. It's 150-acre track of land, and it's taken us almost 20 years to get out of that deal. Um Wow. Very it's a the session for a different day. Yeah. But when we were we and we it's a mixed-use project, uh which we can talk about, but Nerf Gun on Steroids is when we had stripped the building down pre-implosion, uh, we had totally prepared it to put dynamite on it like the next day. All the team members, we had all of our first phase partners, we had hotel, retail, multifamily, and residential partners all under contract. And we all got together, we broke into four teams, and we hired a group and we had a paint gun war in the carcass of the Coliseum. We were all in paint gun paint, we had all the masks, all the setup. And uh it's i I know I am not cut out to be in the military because it scared the crap out of me. And it was painful, but it was a blast.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Wow. Okay, so was it at night or like gun broad daylight?

SPEAKER_01 20:47

It was it was it was in daylight, and we had a big dinner that night to celebrate, and everybody showed up dinner with welts on their faces, and and uh but it was there's you know, of course, no power, nothing. So you're running around in the bowels of a 18,000 seat arena. Imagine a state farm arena with nothing on it. And yeah, and we're running around with paint guns hiding behind stuff, trying to capture the guy, the the the the captain of the other team. Oh, that's awesome. And it's anyway, there you go. I'm not at all embarrassed about your nerf going story. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

That's I think that's a good one. But you know, we're all how old are your kids? Uh we have a 14-month-old, we got another one coming in a couple months.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Boy or girl?

SPEAKER_00 21:24

We got a a a boy now and a girl coming.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Okay. Well, we are just bigger versions of that 14-month-old boy because I was all we we never outgrow that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

No, no. So a cause can I bring this up? I got I don't know about this call. What was it called?

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Pull up City Park Drive, Charlotte.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

And I I want to ask you about Charlotte, because I know y'all have some some projects out there.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

This is an amazing uh pursuit. So it was uh surplus. It's a long story. There's a surplus uh property by the city of Charlotte. They wanted to build a new arena down. And so they went to auction with this. If you go back in your own, this this was an arena?

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Yeah, go back in your timeline.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

That arena was not even 20 years old when we imploded it. And and it there's a lot of politics behind as there are with sports teams. And we saw a 150-acre site. We always thought Charlotte was a great place to be. We didn't have a plate way to get there. But we saw a 150-acre site that was five minutes from the airport. It was 10 minutes from downtown. It was surrounded by 5 million feet of office space. It needed rooftops and retail. It was a hole in a donut. And it was next to uh to a Renaissance park, 140-acre park, and across from a golf course. So we're like, gosh, if we could just fill that donut in with a mixed-use project, uh that'd be great. Yeah. And so that's how that journey started. So we got into a competitive bid, public bid. Every bid was uh in the paper and had to be up by 5%. So we we we got in that process. And I don't know how many times I drove over to Charlotte over the last almost 20 years on this project. It's been a lot of time. But um it was a fascinating journey to take it from a dead Coliseum to what it is now. And and you were talking about your lights earlier. I mean, the first thing we did was we auctioned everything in that place. So there were banners from the ceiling and all the lights and the brigging and the all the 18,000 seats. We gave the Hornets um uh floor to a nonprofit group. So it was a pretty interesting exercise to get to the carcass to get to the paintball game. Paintball game, which is really the most important part of the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Yeah, that's right. That that was why we did it. Um, yes, three million, three million feet of impervious coverage, impervious surface.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

We imploded the Coliseum um and then recycled 85% of the material back on site. So we we pulled up all the asphalt, we put back green space, we took what had disconnected the market, and we used the infrastructure to connect it. And then we went through a series of uh ventures and sales to create what's there today. So they're in the middle of that, however, was the Great Recession. So it was it was a the peak, the biggest peak in the biggest valley back to another peak again. So that was a tremendous reset of that whole project. Trevor Burrus, Jr. So you just hold it. Well, we had to we did we had a Dutch lender, we had to do a discounted notepayoff, we had to recapitalize, we had decided to double down, we had to hold it, all of our first phase contracts went away, and we had to we had to basically redo the whole thing. Wow. Because we had we had uh imploded it and pulled up the asphalt when the market blew up and everything went away. So there we are. We're drawing out our loan, all our equity's out, we got a dead project. We're like, now what do we do? So we had to just cinch up our belt and go for it. All right. But now it is now if you flash forward.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Yeah. So that's 93, uh that's 2002.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Yeah, you'll see it's in process probably in some of these pictures. 2009.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

There you go. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

What's interesting about it is it's called City Park. Uh and all the names in there are name all the road names are named after city parks in the country. But the interesting thing is the anchor to that is that five acres up the middle is a linear park. That actually was a uh landscape installation sculpture by Maya Lynn, who was also the architect, the artist architect for the Vietnam War Memorial. So she had the city had paid for uh uh a landscape installation called Topo, and it has oak trees and big balls rolling down the hill. And so we're like, God, you know, we should keep that. So we really built our whole project around keeping that. And the oak the oak trees there today are spectacular. They've been growing for since 1980s. Yeah. But that was our city park, linear park, that we built the project around.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

This this alley right here. This is the oak tree.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

So yeah, you can see that's that's when we were, you know, we're filling in the hole, reusing all the materials. It was important to me that that that we you know we're pulling up all the dead space and putting back active green space and linking it up.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Sure. And uh Okay, I'm clicking ahead as 2010.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Yeah, go on, just go on to today. I yeah, this is the recession kind of Yeah, you can see our grid, and that's that's when it was just so tough. But just flash on to now, and it now it is uh four apartment projects. That's further than that. Uh Oxford did two apartments here, Terwiliger Pappas did two apartments there on the top. That's the actual where the dome used to be. Yeah. So we filled that hole and they had to build that around at Quezons. We formed a residential company and did uh all the lot development and a program for all those four hundred and fifty houses and townhomes. There's three hotels in there, one more on the way. Tempo is gonna be that down there, and there's Starbucks and and um Chipotle.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

In the back is a farmers market, which has always been there, and that's uh build-to-rent project by Taylor Morrison. So anyway, at the end of the day, it it worked. It almost killed me, but it was uh quite a journey.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Yeah, I want to ask you, like when you're you're in I don't bring back any PTSD, but like going through the recession, like GFC and um you have investors, you have projects, you have every month there's money going out the door, uncarry costs. Like how do you I know in in my world, like I'm helping companies you know figure out a lease, maybe they put a project on hold, or maybe you don't win a bid, or there's just always stuff that I mean that's that's my level of stress. I I feel like it's probably like a two out of ten versus anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Well I mentioned earlier, and let me put it in some context for you. Uh 87, 91, 92, 2000, 2001, 2009, 10, 2020. Five major economic setbacks in the course of my 40-year career. Um each one different. Each one um had different dynamics going in and coming out. Um but I think to your question, I think one thing about this business is I mentioned the the peaks and the valleys, the highs and the lows. I mean, we are in this business to take risks. Um we're in this just business to manage problems. And problems problems always arise, right? You're I think you're an endurance guy, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

Uh I think we talked about that before.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Uh a couple half Iron Man's got a marathon or two on the boat, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Okay, well, I'm I'm right there with you. Yeah. And uh so you know there there's good suffering and there's bad suffering. And good suffering is what you do when you're training, uh, and bad suffering is what happens, what you can't expect. One, you're putting yourself in a situation to get better, get stronger, and the other was you're reacting to to overcome. So in a very similar way, uh in my time in endurance sports in the last 40 years, I think that's an excellent um metaphor for the business that we're in. And so in those five setbacks, there are difficult times, but I think it goes to the core of what we do. The core of what we do is we're in this business to be creative problem solvers. We're in this business for relationships, and we have some spectacular partners, and there's no better example of that than this, where you're everybody's looking at the same thing. What do you want to do? And and the the the the core issue, I think the success of our company and any company that's been around as long as we have is trust. Trust and relationships. And what do you do when it goes bad? And it goes bad. And so, yeah, this is one that we all looked around the table and like, well, you know, we're gonna walk, what are we gonna do? And we decided to double down and stick with it, and the investors got all their money out, we made a profit, and here we are. And we I get to claim that we we turned a dead arena into a new community. And what's interesting about that, I was there a few weeks ago at a dinner celebrating a closing we had, and I stayed at the hotel on the property, and I sat on a park bench in that linear park, and it was just talking to a random stranger walking their dog, and they had no idea it was a coliseum. I was just laughing, going, This is exactly what kept me focused that someday I want to sit on a park bench here in the middle of this grid, and then even though they have no idea what the struggle was. They don't care. It's city parks where they live. Yeah. Boom.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Wow. That's uh just some good situational irony if you're like you have no idea the history. Um how did how did y'all get connected with the Dutch? All right. I've heard I d I don't know what the investment group's called, but I know that y'all have some investment.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

We have several families. Yeah, one of them is a co-investor in our company now. But there's been a lot there was just a lot of historic investment. And we're basically two prominent families now with some offshoots. And one one prominent family, the Slocker group, is a 20% owner of PLE, the holding company. And so they are not only equity partners in deals that we do, uh, but they're also part of the holding company. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

Were they shopping around for a good American real estate to invest in, or like was it on a vacation? I don't really remember.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

I don't remember the origin story. I uh it might go back as far as Amelia Island. I don't know. That's in the That's in the Pope and Land past.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

That's yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

I can conjure up the recent past of the last 20 years, but I can't go back to 40. But I I actually don't know, but I just have known them to be with us for the entire time I've been at Pope and Land.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Aaron Powell Yeah. And they've recently doubled down, and it's that's a great, great partnership you'll have. Um I'm curious what your take is on just different pockets of Atlanta. I know when we've had coffee in the past, you've had really interesting takes on, you know, markets that are you're kind of expecting to do well in the future, or some that maybe have some headwinds, but I'm curious where you see opportunity right now.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Well, yeah, we we try to grow where we're planted as much as we as much as we can. Uh so we have, as you said earlier, we have you know uh we have good knowledge and good history in town center, in Cumberland. Uh we've had a long history in Decatur and Buckhead and Perimeter, um up the 75 corridor, certainly up Alpharetta Way, up to Forsyth. We've done a lot of deals in those areas. So I think that that's not the hard part, right? That's it that's going to where it's comfortable. I think that uh I'm amazed as a person that's been here for 30 something years to see areas you never thought would evolve have evolved, right? Um the the east side memorial corridor, the west side, the upper west side, the south side. I mean, this nobody went below twenty for a long time, and now the south side is a blowing up. So I think that I think that that's a good question. Um I don't I couldn't I don't have a crystal ball to tell you exactly where it will be, but I can tell you we're actively looking at a lot of different places in a lot of different ways. Um some small town stuff, some um big swings, a lot of redevelopment stuff. So, you know, we're just trying to stay active and get out there. And our job principally is to raise capital, deploy that capital, match it with a real estate asset, and create value and then repeat. You know, if we were to use a farmer metaphor, you know, our job at Pope and Land is to is to you know uh find the find the field, uh plant it, nurture it, har and then grow it and then harvest it and do it again. And so that's you know, that's that's what our job has always been, and that's what our job will be. It just takes different forms.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Right, right. Um any any projects going on that you I would say admire or think are uh is a really special kind of stuff. Outside of ours or just ourselves. Yeah, like out there outside the markets.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

We live in the greatest city. Uh it's so impressive to me to see how we evolve. Uh, you know, it used there used to be the the you know uh uh uh Taylor Mathis and Portman and you know and that's that gave away, and Regent was in there, and Pope and Lamb's in there. There's all these amazing companies that sort of built a lot of our what we see today. And then you have, you know, uh Jim Borders come through, and now you got Jim Urban come through, and you got Toro doing his stuff. So this city, this region is always evolving, and it's so impressive to me. Uh even to see just the evolution of the Seela company over the years, right? Right. The bold strokes they're doing in Midtown. It for goodness sakes, the Chattahoochee works. So yeah, I'm obviously a big fan of our peers. I'm a big fan of this region, and I wake up every day excited to see what's next, whether it's us or not. You know? And and no greater example of that than where we're sitting right now downtown is it's super impressive to see what's going on down here. And I have the greatest hope that it all works out. I really do.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Yeah. It's it is one of the best times in the last 20, 30 years for I mean, outside I mean, the Olympics was a great flag in the ground, got everybody excited, and um I was a little bit before me, but uh obviously we have World Cup and that's been a good rally point.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

But um shout out to the you and I did I think first connect at round 143 Alabama. Yeah. And um we've been we've been poking around downtown for a very long time, and we spent almost seven years on that pursuit of the ugliest, most broken building in Atlanta. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

It's the Walking Dead building.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

But let me bring up a picture so people are and and I I'm I'm sad to say we we couldn't carry it through Invest Atlanta in a different way after that, but no hard feelings. Um but before 143 Atlanta, we were under the Cassim Reed administration, we uh Larry and I pursued uh Morris Brown because it was broken to Atlanta University Center. And now we're of course we're engaged with the World Congress Center, and so we've you know, there's a been a lot of activity. You and I talked about 101 Marietta. So you know, we we're trying to figure out this downtown puzzle for a very long time, but we're big believers that a stable, strong, thriving downtown is good for the region.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Yeah. So can we talk a little bit about 143 Alabama? I know there was some interesting yeah. There were some layers to it. I wasn't there like a rail line behind it and a plot that nobody knew who owned it or something.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

It was a fascinating journey. Uh and just to sum that up, InvestAtlanta put out on RFP. It was sort of we won the beauty contest. Our vision was to renovate that building, keep it. We love the building. Uh it is a fortress. It has been vacant longer than it ever had a tenant. And it is unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Like nobody's been in it.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

And uh the only tenants it's had have been homeless people, and they blocked, they kicked them out. But but I think for us, the architecture, the location, just for Atlanta, we thought, God, we've got to clean that up. Yeah. And so we were gonna do affordable housing in the parking lot and loft office here, and then ground floor retail and amidst the puzzle that it was with the housing authority and the rec authority and the city of Atlanta and all these different pieces. So it was a fascinating jigsaw puzzle. Um, but ultimately what happened is time changed, you know, uh uh and and we had a um uh a path forward with the city, and they ended up going a different direction, and we're like, fine, we're fine, we're good.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

After 10 years. It's all good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've got other people. It was a great journey.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

But my point is to be a part of trying to do something beneficial to downtown Atlanta through through that building and looking around for other opportunities as a as an Atlantan now, a suburban Atlantan, focusing on the the health of the core and seeing now centenity arts and seeing all things that are happening, certainly uh Bird Song on the South Side of this of Atlanta, all the stuff that's that you uh interviewed him about, that's exciting.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

Yeah. Yeah, it is. I they're they're putting together like a documentary movie or something about that. Um excited to see. Just I know him and David are are working hard to tell the story well.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

Uh well, I will tell you the uh another organization that is very much like the Braves is the World Congress Center Authority.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Aaron Powell Tell me about that. So we have actually we we have Kevin Duvall coming next week. Um I'm excited to talk to him. I know y'all came out with some update on it's the International Plaza, it's right outside of here. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

So we started at uh Home Depot Backyard. We similarly to the Braves, we were engaged by the authority to help them with their vision. And we started at the Home Depot Backyard when the Cygnia was under construction still and then migrated up to International Plaza. So we went from uh trying to design something to build on the carcass of the old Georgia dome uh to now trying to design something to build on a seven-story parking deck. And so it's it and I will absolutely let Kevin tell you all about that, but I will say that uh we love working with those guys. They are very much like the Brays, where they're a powerful organization that knows what they want, they can make decisions, and they have authority to do what they need to do. Yeah, that's that's that's how deals happen.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Hey guys, I just want to take a second and thank our sponsors for today's episode. Uh, this episode is brought to you by Corporate Environments, Georgia's leading full-service commercial furniture and workplace solutions partner. Whether you're building out Class A offices, retrofitting, co-working space, or planning large-scale tenant improvements, Corporate Environments brings deep expertise in future design and specifications, architectural solutions, project management, delivery and installation, and more. They're known for delivering turnkey solutions that help your properties stand out and your client's space work better. Plus, as a certified, minority-owned business, they bring a fresh, diversity-driven perspective to every project, something that resonates in today's market. To elevate your next interior build-out or FF and E plan, reach out to corporate environments. They have a location here in Atlanta and Savannah, and you can learn more at corporateenvironments.com. Let their team turn your vision into impactful spaces. Their structure, I'm trying to Kevin told me it's so their state organization, and they own and control Centennial Olympic Park. They own isn't it like all the um Atlanta, the the College Football Hall of Fame, like that real estate. That's right. And Mercedes-Benz Stadium.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

That's right. Okay. And so they own all that, and there's right different rights. The Falcons have rights and those sorts of things. But yeah, they their campus is pretty expansive and they and it's on the other side of Northside.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Like there's aren't don't they have a bunch of land that's all up north of their sound? That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

It's impressive.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

It is. And then they are now in charge of not now, but it's been for a while, the Savannah Convention Center. That's right. It's the same same group. So where where does that project stand? I I know there was a press release that came out, it's like, how do we activate this area? It's in their hands.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

We've we have done it we've worked together with them for now, I don't know, a year and a half or more. Okay. And uh and and the project has evolved and we've done all the studies. We've done the studies on the structural parts of the deck, we've done the studies on parking and and demand and uh all the things you would normally do. We've priced the stuff, we've done designs, we've done we've got really cool elevations. So it it goes where they wherever they want it to go. Where they want to go. And uh it's their decision. It's their it's but it I just say that experience has really been great.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure you've what's been a real education for me, I've I've known downtown very passionate about the area. Um, like having William Payton here and Dan Corso and just hearing some of the numbers of the convention business that we have, obviously the concerts and championships, but really the conventions. I mean, being down here, when we were getting the studio set up, we'd go over at to the Omni for lunch, and there's a new convention here every couple days, and thousands of people that are well, you know better than anybody.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

You've been a phenomenal uh downtown advocate. I mean, you went to Georgia State, right? I did. Yeah. So I mean you've been a downtown believer for a very long time. The theory of the case is that today, much like we talked about with Charlotte, disconnecting and connecting, um today there are pockets of activity. There are destinations. One thing that the Braves said is we can't, when they were turner feel, everybody comes in at one time for one thing and they all go home. Yeah. And now it's totally different. 14 ways in and out, come early, stay late, whatever, whatever. It's linked up. So the theory of the case here is that there is an emerging entertainment zone that if you come five years from now, if you come to the aquarium, right? The aquarium is there because they wanted people to stay a weekend, right? Uh they wanted they built the aquarium so people would stay downtown longer. But so if you come there, you eventually you can have an experience where you could walk through Centennial Park to where we are today to the center. You can go over to Centennial Yards, you could go to the international plaza we're talking about. You could go to South Downtown, right? There are breadcrumbs, linkages that get you, if you start one place, you might end another. Today, it's not really hospitable to do that. You're either in Centennial Park or you're not, or you're in the World Congress Center, or you're not, or you're at a baseball football game, or you're not, right? Yeah. So I but I think the belief. The thesis of that is very powerful entities with very big investments who who see a vision emerging here of these pieces all linking up. And to me, that's really exciting.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

It is. It's amazing to see it come together. I've I've shared this before, but Nick Garcia's at at Heinz, actually helping with the retail leasing here at the center. I I remember connecting with him really early on when I started in Brokerage and he showed me all these confidential rendering. He was at Centennial Yards at the time. This is like it was still a rumor that this thing was going on, but I just I remember I was like, oh, this is really, really happening.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

Like they're they're about to Well and Brian McGowan shepherding that could not have been a better guy to do that. He he is spectacular. And they put their money where their mouth is, and all the naysayers, there aren't any naysayers anymore. I mean, it's there. It's spectacular looking. And you think, well, that's going to happen, and this is gonna happen, and that's gonna happen, and there it is. And so it's it's really exciting to see that. Aaron Powell Sure.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

What's your take on office product down here?

SPEAKER_01 45:05

How how long do you think before people have to see the energy and that's a that's a it's a mystery to us to underwrite that, honestly, because on one hand it looks like a great value, you could just pick up something cheap. On the other hand, like yeah, it's kind of expensive if you pick it up cheap, uh because you still got to deal with it. I think we we talked about 101 Miriad. I really like that building because you talk about where it was and where it's gonna be. Yeah. Um, where it was was sort of on the back end of the ridge where the world was at 191 and it was over here. But now that's kind of it's near the epicenter. Exactly. I think the good news is, as you know, our market's always evolving, it's always moving, it's always influenced. And when you look at the catalysts that are here and the people that are committed to it, you make, okay, this this I'm I'm excited to see how it plays out.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

Aaron Powell So that's your take on downtown. I think the other big ingredient that's happened in in Atlanta is all the suburbs have kind of become their own thing. We have Medley coming up, Avalon's absolutely crushed it, uh Woodstock thing. I mean Noonan has been growing really well. You have Trilleth on the south side. Do you have any others that you're kind of thinking are uh We're we're potential.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

Yeah, I I think that's a great question and a great observation. And I think that I'm I'll pull back and tell you this. Under the broad heading of placemaking, I think it falls maybe into four categories. There's organic, there's authentic, uh there's authentic enhanced, and there's created. Okay? So organic would be the upper west side, right? White provision used to be a storage facility, right? And now the whole West Side's changed organically. There wasn't a master plan, it wasn't a city thing. It's just one by one by one, it became a different place. Pont City Market Beltline Intersection. I can remember when there was no belt line, the Pont City Market was an albatross nothing. And organically it happened. I mean it happened, and then organically that area grew. So there's plenty of examples of organic placemaking. Authentic is what you're talking about, which is there are uh dozens and dozens of old rail towns here out in the suburbs that were decimated when we changed how we were shopping and malls were built and they all just sort of fell apart. Not all of them, but you know, they they fell down from what their original glory. An authentic place might be Marietta Square, right? Might be uh Gainesville or or Lawrenceville, right? Authentic enhanced is where they take that authenticity and they expand it. And the best examples of that to me are Alpharetta and Duluth, where there were really good history and bones there. And through phenomenal public-private private partnerships, they are allowed to grow where they didn't kill the authenticity, they made it better, right? And then created, and you mentioned all of them. I mean, obviously, Mark Toro has done a spectacular job at Avalon, he will do a spectacular job at Medley. Uh Trillis is amazing. You know, there are plenty there's even created towns like Swanee, right? Town Center, right? Places like that, Sugar Hill. So I think that uh in in the in the spectrum of placemaking, you know, it's interesting to see in how those categories are different and the experiences are different. You can go to Alpharetta and go to the a world-class created place or a world-class authentic enhanced place, and you can walk from one to the other. That's pretty impressive.

SPEAKER_02 48:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:57

So uh there's an art to that for sure. And I mean, the of course the battery is a phenomenal example of a created place. But uh anyway, so we try to play in in some of those zones. We it'd be I I'd like to think we can get ahead of some organic things, but that's really hard. We have spent time in created, but my other company, Western and Atlantic development, does spend time in the authentic small towns, uh investing in small towns and uh trying to find little nuggets of of interesting real estate. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

Yeah. Tell tell me about that. Uh, Western Atlantic, like how did you you started investing in properties and like when did that begin?

SPEAKER_01 49:38

And well, but so back to the sort of the origin story. When I joined Pope and Land with the AMLE uh portfolio, I said to Larry, I said, look, I I really I want to you I'm forming a company so I can invest in Pope and Land real estate. It's one thing to be to transact, it's something else to be an owner and an investor, right? And Pope and Land gives us the opportunity to do that. So I really wanted to lean into the investing in real estate and it into two ways. The regional way, the big stuff, the big farms, the agribusiness of Pope and Land, and the community farm of, to use my metaphor, of Western Atlantic. And so I formed a company 30 years ago so I could do both. And they don't compete. So really my partners on the Western Atlantic side, we focus on small towns with historic significance. And so we the very question you asked about these small towns is we've over 25 or 30 years, different groups of us have gotten together, and we've either led investments or we've followed or been an LP in other people's investments, principally in small towns or areas with historic significance. And and it's not for everybody. It's it's it's uh it's a labor of love a little bit because no credit tenants, you know, it's but here's the key to the question you asked about the re-emergence of the small towns and the suburbs is they are now grounded in their authenticity. They are known by the tenants that they have. The tenants become a fabric that distinguishes them from the other town. So there's a stickiness to the tenants. And the the best example I can give you is the fear that we had in 2020. Our partners and I looked around and we said, we have got a lot of mom and pop here who are gonna go out of business, and we are personally liable for these loans. These are this is our stuff. And what are we gonna do when everybody goes out of business? And the fact of the matter is we lost nobody. Everybody figured it out. The lenders extended the loans, the tenants, we we work with the tenants, they work with us, we were on the phone. And and I I never would have anticipated that to be the case, but that actually sort of proved our thesis, which is this is old school, hand-to-hand, old time, know your tenant, know your building up the roof leaks, you know, somebody's got to fix it, kind of a thing. Yeah. Way different. It's the community garden growing something you're gonna eat that night versus the agribusiness of planting and growing and harvesting.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

We don't we don't really sell much of our stuff. We're trying to build up a portfolio of assets that are unique and and uh long lasting.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

Aaron Ross Powell What's your approach to acquisitions of those kind of retailers? Like my my take is I mean you go to like Blue Ridge or something, and it's this downtown property, and the owner has owned it forever and they want$10 million for this. It's difficult corner.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

It's very difficult. Yeah. It's difficult. But it's it's okay. I mean, it's it's fun. We like it. We like it. And uh and uh it's it's intriguing, but it's really also satisfying when you when you take an old building or an old storefront and you renovate it and you repopulate it. And the old guy that doesn't want to have been there forever, who's keeping the mark, he's got I can lease it for$4 a foot. Why do I want to, you know, he goes, he's got some old thing that's not accretive to the town, you replace it with something that is, and all of a sudden, organically it begins to grow a little bit. So we've we've we've we're we're we're happy when we do that.

SPEAKER_00 53:16

Yeah. Looking back at your career a couple decades, couple market cycles now. Um, are there any transactions that that really stand out to you? Like I've a lot of times I'll ask people like, what was kind of your breakout deal? I'm curious what were some that were earlier in your career that um you kind of felt like you got your sea legs on.

SPEAKER_01 53:39

That's a good question. I think that that answer takes a lot of different forms. I think there's a certain satisfaction in overcoming adversity.

SPEAKER_00 53:46

Yeah. We talked about a couple of them.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

There's a there's a satisfaction that really we do it to to create something, to cast a vision and create it. Bring people together to to uh to endorse your vision and then create it, and then you know, there it is. Until somebody else blows it up, there it is. You know, that's kind of cool. So I think writ large, the developers do what they do for that payoff, right? Uh I can go touch buildings and remember when that was something different. You know? Uh uh that's that I I enjoy that part of the deal. So yeah, it's taken a bunch of different forms. Uh solving problems has been a lot of fun. Uh it it's it requires some endurance sometimes. But uh but yeah, that the the you know then there economically, there's some deals that did well, right? Uh I'm I'm proud of the fact we built a building for Piedmont uh healthcare up in Chastain Road and sold it for a four and a quarter cap. That made me happy. Uh pretty pretty good. So we, you know, we and that was on the carcass of another dead deal. So it's just uh it's all it's all crazy.

SPEAKER_00 54:52

Yeah. Hey guys, I just want to take a second and thank today's sponsors. Uh this episode is brought to you by USA Cabling Technologies and Solutions. Alex Morris and his team are just the most incredible partners. They've helped us get our studio going here. Anything that you need for low voltage or audiovisual needs in your own build-outs or office suites, they are just a plus. So if you want to learn more about them, you can go to their website, USACablingtech.com. Again, that's USA CablingTech.com. Now back to the show. Um so we have a lot of kids at Georgia State, a lot of young people trying to get in the industry that listen to this podcast. Do you have any any advice or um any sage wisdom for for people that are trying to do that?

SPEAKER_01 55:31

I think it takes I think it takes tenacity. I think it it's a it's a certain, and as you know, as a broker, it's a certain breed of person that can stay the course when when it's a long time between deals and things aren't working out, and brokers don't always have con they don't have control of one side or the other, just trying to transact. I mean, there's a you have to stay positive, optimistic, uh, and committed and dedicated to it. And then, of course, now in this day and time, skills, I mean, for goodness sakes, you know, AI is phenomenal. And so I think that when I came out of college, it was this is one of this is the segment where you date yourself and you tell old old guy stories. Yeah, yeah. I'm 64 and I got so but literally when I came out of college, i i uh we had a receptionist who wrote on pink paper who called you. Uh we had a microfiche, we don't even know what that is. It's the way you looked up property ownership. And it was a big day when we got our How do you say that word? Microfiche. You could Google it, it's some historical thing. Um and it was a big day when we got our first fax machine. And so here I am, 40 years later, and we're adopting all sorts of AI technology, and along the way has been, you know, laptops and Google, all these things. So uh so the pace has accelerated. The uh use of data is accelerated, the knowledge, all those things have accelerated, but the core still is, I think, relationships, trust, uh, and and situativeness.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Yeah. Do you do y'all have any I guess immediate application for AI at Pope and Land?

SPEAKER_01 57:13

We do. We we have an initiative. Yeah, I think if you talk about maybe Pope and Land going forward. Fortunately, as you said, we have uh a really good legacy of deals we could talk about. Um but you're only as good as your last deal, right? So we're always in the business of farming, as I described. But I think going forward, we we want to um leverage our relationships. We want to expand our uh sources of equity. Uh we're looking for co co-investment. We can have a lot, we've had a number of examples of co-investment deals. We want to diversify our product type, and we're really leaning into AI. So we have everybody sort of one-off did it. And I finally said, look, you know what, let's get a guy in here and let's do training. So we've been doing that. And so it's cool. We're becoming more efficient and more effective in the in the accessing data, the utilization of data, packaging, and now it's getting to the fourth dimension, which is thinking. And so the first thing we did is let's let's just use this tool to do what we do better, faster. Yeah. You know? And then maybe it learns and it replaces all of us. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, right. But I think that's a long way of saying it's it's so it's really exciting to see how quickly things are changing.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

Yeah. And I I think a lot of people have I I know for me, I've I've kind of catched myself in two camps. One is I want to know how to use this and utilize it in every pocket of my life. And I've got a good friend, shout out Trent Swords, you also call him. Um I'll buy him a drink or coffee and we'll go hang out for an hour. And um, he's like an AI consultant. This is like what he thinks about. And so I'm like, how do you how can I apply just this to how do I do a tenant rep deal in a more efficient way? How do I write RFPs or review leases or you know, all those sort of things. So I I've got that kind of thought process. And then the other thought process is like this stuff changes so much every like 48 hours, there's new tools that it's like, I'm just gonna wait till it kind of hits some sort of plateau or equilibrium where it's like, okay, now I can really learn.

SPEAKER_01 59:20

But I think to your question of the young person, right? The young person is shows up way more conversant in all that stuff. I mean, I know I have a 32-year-old, a 30-year-old, and a 27-year-old. And you know, they're almost antiquated uh to the people behind them, right? Not really, but uh but they all each group behind us is a is an earlier adopter and more technologically savvy. And I think we're seeing that, you know, our bench is our bench is good. It's young, getting younger. And we're trying to we're trying to match uh youth and strength with age and wisdom and have our have our company be both. So we've been working on a younger bench, and our young bench is impressive, and they come ready to go. They've got old school work ethic and they've got technology, you know, saves uh uh equipped, and uh it's it's a good it's a good mix.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

It's good. Um I'm trying to think what else I can ask you about what we have here. We talked about Western Atlantic.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:23

Um we talked about small towns like So Western Atlantic is in you can see the theme of where we are or where we have been. And it's it's me and a couple partners. This is my company, but the we have a couple partners on you know, things on this website. But we we are either in charge of or are LPs with other people in small towns. Uh we are either now or have been in Oakhurst and Decatur and North Decatur, Virginia Highlands, Emin Park, Avondale Estates, Little Five Points, Shambley, Norcross, Lawrenceville, uh, Roswell. Um, these are great pockets.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:03

Yeah. So I'm saying just to your question.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

But to your question, that's exactly you can see just in that in that in that theme what those all have in common. Most of them are authentic, some of them are authentic enhanced. And I distinguish the two because we have had good experiences with towns and terrible experiences with towns. And uh an authentic enhanced town. I didn't mention Lilburn, but like Old Town Lilburn, we had two assets there. An authentic enhanced town is an example of a public-private working together. An authentic town only that doesn't morph, doesn't move, uh stays the same, is an example of a town that's you know, probably has I like it just the way it is, don't change it. Right. And so there's a tension there. And and I have had good experiences and bad experiences with cities trying to advance uh our our thesis.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:05

What's your approach to raising capital? I'm sure at this point you've got a great network, you've got I guess you have different buckets of hey, this group will definitely be a fit for the Western Atlanta.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:15

This is a Popen Land Pope and Land has a a really good stable of high net worth individuals that that really like real estate. And we like investing with them because they're they they understand it, they're willing to take the risk, they ask great questions, they're fully engaged, they like a reporting. Some like a lot of reporting, some don't like so much. You know, they're recycle their money sometimes. But yeah, it's as I said in the beginning, it's a b it's about trying to match up what they want to do with their money with the opportunities that are available. And then we shepherd it. Um Western Atlantic is really just different. That's just a bunch of little, you know, we're just doing little things, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:54

These are they're great, great projects. Um What's your take on what David Zalek is doing, buying up office buildings, all cash, and partnering up with I don't know how much you've been following that thread.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:07

Yeah, I think I think that um that's a good question. And and uh my take is we've been trying to the theory was in the reset. There's always a theory and a reset. And we've made a lot of money in resets, right? When we did Northwind's uh that was a marine Midland uh broken deal, 240 acres that we bought cheap, and then we built seven office buildings there and did a whole mixed-use park. But you can't do that unless you get into the good basis. So it's not always bad unless you're losing something, you know. Yeah. So uh but the point is we everybody thought in this down cycle there'd be a lot more opportunities to buy office. And that but the issue is, as I said with River Edge One, sometimes you're just buying something to to do away with it because it's obsolete. Yeah. Embassy Row comes to mind with a great acquisition with uh uh Chaz Lazarian and those guys to buy something in one form, keep part of it, scrape it, monetize it, move it along. So I think those are we we're looking for those opportunities. I think um we don't have a big appetite. It's the first time in my career that I think we have not had appetite to buy a building and believe we got a better mousetrap, right? We'll just buy it at this and we'll put change the sign and rebrand it and release it up. I think that's office products move too much. Exactly. The office is either work it's either a working office environment that has value. Yeah. And if you can dress it up in that way because it has value and represent it, that's great. But it's it's it's it's it's different different now. Um so would you we'd be willing to spend more for a half broken building in a good environment than less for a fully broken building, you know, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:55

At a low basis. Yeah. Um I just I think like we had Travis Garland in last week and we were talking about what they're doing at Brookside and how they're like there's densification that's happening, but sometimes it's just tough to do that. Like you've got your entitlements and zoning, and there's a little bit more complicated. But I for for a while there, I don't know if it was like later last year, kind of around the summer, there's so many people looking to buy office buildings. They're calling us tenant reps, like, hey, what do you what do you think of this building? I think we've had probably one of those conversations, but um I would I don't want to say those have like they've kind of waned, but um to your point, I I think people are being wise. They're saying, okay, what what actually has demand on it, what is real opportunity. I think a lot of people have had a hard time actually getting their hands on assets just because banks don't want to touch them at all. So they have to they have to come in with high net worth and be able to to pay all cash. I think that's right. Well, Mace, I just can't thank you enough for coming out. This has been a lot of fun. I'm glad we we finally got it on the record and I know we've been talking about doing it for a while. So um appreciate what y'all are doing and and for the city and I'm excited to see what what transpires over here at Georgia World Congress Center and uh future projects.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:06

Great. Yeah, me too. I'm excited. So I keep keep doing what you're doing. It's impressive. That's the plan. I'd say I'd see you on the road, uh, but I don't bike or run anymore. So I I won't see you on the road anymore.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:16

Yeah, I can't I can't do biking. It's I feel like it's it's too risky being on the road. You go out to Silver Comet, and I don't know, you might have a kid run in front of the bike or so I I run a lot, but yeah. Well uh you got another marathon coming up? Uh Nashville and five or six weeks. So fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:35

Which was which the other two you did?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:37

Um so I've done a handful of halves. We did uh buddy and we did the Publix here in Atlanta. That was the only full full marathon. We've done like I don't know, ten halves at this point. But the half's a lot of fun. Thirteen miles, I can I can handle that the rest of the day I can still enjoy. But I mean the full it wiped me out. I was I didn't want to run for like four months every full. But we've got friends that I Jeff Bellamy is a good friend at JLO. I don't know if you know him. His his goal now is he's running a marathon in every state, and I think he's like on number 38 or 39.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:11

Here's what's funny about that in the in that culture. Uh I I've done 14 marathons. 15 if you include the Iron Man.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:18

And as interesting as that might be, my sister-in-law who lived next door to us has done the 50 states. She's she's up to 65. She's running Boston for the fourth time. So even though I've done 14 marathons in an Iron Man, it's just still the bar is always somebody uh out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:35

Yeah. Yeah. The bar is always higher. It's like, okay, you run 100 miles.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:38

But I gave it up. I all I do now is I'm a rower. It's so I've been rowing for 15 years.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

So I think you go like out on on the lake, or you have a rower in your house and boats.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:46

I have a boat up at a lakehouse at Lanier and I go row up there. It's beautiful. But I won't see you on the road. I I gave up biking and uh and rowing's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:56

I d that's a full body workout. It's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:58

It's like it's a little bit it's the same as sort of uh runner's high, but just on the water. What time do you get up to sunrise, man?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:06

Okay. I just Lake Lanier. I mean, the glass.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:08

So I mean I'm at the far n I'm up I'm almost up by Delanaga. So I'm at the very far north of the lake where it's flat.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:14

Not all the the craziness and all that. Yeah. But yeah. Well, cool. Well, Mason, thank you. Thank you again for coming out. Thank you. This has been great. We'll have to do it again. Um, y'all, thanks for everybody for tuning in. We've got a lot more to come, and uh that's it. See ya.